RetroBASIC

Basicprogramming(.org) => General questions and discussions => Topic started by: Aurel on September 12, 2018, 06:05:17 PM

Title: I
Post by: Aurel on September 12, 2018, 06:05:17 PM
....
Title: Re: Is there ....
Post by: Tomaaz on September 12, 2018, 06:13:39 PM
....any BASIC dialect or maybe programming language that all members here
use for programming

No.

or we must create one that everybody here know how to use it?

No, we don't.
Title: Re: Is there ....
Post by: Aurel on September 12, 2018, 06:16:15 PM
O
Title: Re: Is there ....
Post by: Tomaaz on September 12, 2018, 06:19:12 PM
Aurel, you can create a new BASIC dialect, but how are you going to force everybody here to use it?  ???  And if you want to ask everyone for suggestions and opinion then good luck with finding consensus.  ;D
Title: Re: Is there ....
Post by: Aurel on September 12, 2018, 06:35:46 PM
n
Title: Re: Is there ....
Post by: Tomaaz on September 12, 2018, 08:35:11 PM
Good luck with that, too.  ;D John is gonna say that ScriptBasic is an obvious choice. Dunny that the only BASIC he's interested in is SpecBas. I would like to suggest BaCon, but, since the most popular OS here is Windows, it wouldn't make any sense. B+ would go for SmallBasic or QB64 and Galileo for Yabasic. ;D
Title: Re: Is there ....
Post by: Tomaaz on September 12, 2018, 08:43:31 PM
You would suggest Oxygen Basic, but it's Windows only, so I'm gonna say "no". Cybermonkey could accept FreeBASIC, but John wouldn't be happy about it plus on Linux it's not as easy to use as on Windows. There is also n00b with RCBasic and some NaaLaa fans, but for anyone who likes to do more than just 2D graphics both are a poor choice. Peter is focused on BaCon and he's not gonna suddenly start to code in FreeBASIC or NaaLaa. To be honest - if we wanted to choose one language to code with, the one that has a chance to be accepted by the biggest number of users would be... Python. But this is not an option for you!  ;D
Title: Re: Is there ....
Post by: ScriptBasic on September 12, 2018, 09:25:00 PM
Script BASIC is the hammer in my development tool box. VB6 is a other Windows RAD tool I use.

I'm a believer of using the right tool for the job. Too many people get hung up on only using one language for everything.
Title: Re: Is there ....
Post by: Richly on September 12, 2018, 09:39:40 PM
I'm open minded about other BASICs - perhaps because I'm less informed than most people here and have not developed strong opinions or knowledge on what I should be looking for.

SpecBAS and BBC BASIC for Windows / SDL are the ones that I mainly play around with because they are extensions of the BASICs that I grew up with and are most familiar to me and suit my limited needs.

I'm also interested in C, which I occasionally find time to play with and would be interested in learning more about C BASIC.
Title: Re: Is there ....
Post by: ScriptBasic on September 12, 2018, 10:04:38 PM
Quote
I'm also interested in C, which I occasionally find time to play with and would be interested in learning more about C BASIC.

You could create an extension module for Script BASIC using C BASIC. The Bitbucket C BASIC repository has a few examples. I have standardized on using C BASIC for all new extension modules I create. C BASIC is really an extension to Script BASIC's extensive use of macros and the C pre-processor.
Title: Re: Is there ....
Post by: ZXDunny on September 12, 2018, 11:43:52 PM
If I'm gonna play around in BASIC, then it's SpecBAS naturally. If I'm researching other BASICs looking for features to steal or improve upon, then yes - I'll use those other BASICs. And I have, pretty much all of them (aside from Sord M5 BASIC G, for which I can find no manual online).

BUT, if I'm gonna go do a job rather than playing around, then I'll drop into Delphi for Windows RAD development due to the pure prototyping speed or possibly C++ or Objective-C for the excellent compiler.

BASIC is for fun, not work.
Title: Re: Is there ....
Post by: ScriptBasic on September 13, 2018, 03:06:11 AM
Quote
BASIC is for fun, not work.

Script BASIC has a few commercial users that would strongly disagree.

I use SB all the time for integration tasks.

There is still a huge install base of VB6 code running businesses.

I agree your retro BASIC is for fun.
Title: Re: Is there ....
Post by: n00b on September 13, 2018, 06:05:39 AM
I should come by here more often. There is always some interesting topics. I actually use VBA at work all day (I absolutely hate it). I doubt anyone BASIC dialect will ever be the defacto standard. Even the most basic example, PRINT "HELLO WORLD", is not syntax compatible across every dialect.
Title: Re: Is there ....
Post by: ZXDunny on September 13, 2018, 08:51:37 AM
Real BASIC has line numbers.
Title: Re: Is there ....
Post by: ScriptBasic on September 13, 2018, 11:50:41 AM
Quote
Real BASIC has line numbers.

Real BASIC is one statement per line.

Line numbers are optional.
Title: Re: Is there ....
Post by: Tomaaz on September 13, 2018, 12:43:31 PM
Real BASIC has line numbers, GOTO, GOSUB, IF/THEN in one line only (no ELSE/ELSEIF), PEEK and POKE, DATA. ;)
Title: Re: Is there ....
Post by: ScriptBasic on September 13, 2018, 01:02:52 PM
I don't think PEEK/POKE are part of the minimal BASIC standard.
Title: Re: Is there ....
Post by: ZXDunny on September 13, 2018, 01:23:56 PM
ECMA standards (1978) have it that statements can be nested. It is unclear, however, if the nesting they refer to is in actual fact a restriction on the order of FOR-NEXT statements or statements themselves, and they do not provide any means to concatenate statements - however, since the mid 70s many BASICs adopted the colon character for statement separation.

But then, many BASICs have played very fast and loose with the standards as computing power increased the language evolved to make use of it (eg: PRINT command, sound commands)

However, none of the classic BASICs from the time alowed optional line numbers - that came much later when new languages moved away from BASIC towards less beginner-friendly dialects.
Title: Re: Is there ....
Post by: B+ on September 13, 2018, 02:32:29 PM
Hey! I thought only Donald Trump gets to say what is Real. :D
Title: Re: Is there ....
Post by: ScriptBasic on September 13, 2018, 09:47:41 PM
Your anal about line numbers but string out a program in one continuous line. Does your BASIC only support line 10?
Title: Re: Is there ....
Post by: ZXDunny on September 14, 2018, 09:18:43 AM
Your anal about line numbers but string out a program in one continuous line. Does your BASIC only support line 10?

"You're"

Of course it only supports line 10, and I'm glad you're bitter enough about it to make that kind of comment.
Title: Re: Is there ....
Post by: Aurel on September 14, 2018, 01:17:48 PM
[
Title: Re: Is there ....
Post by: Tomaaz on September 14, 2018, 02:19:27 PM
you can tanks to delphi and other pascal people put the effort in so many libs (
deriverd from C/C++) which you can use in ,
without that delphi or pascal in general should be crap like any other BASIC dialect
which have just core things .

And that's exactly why Pascal is more suited for work than BASIC! This is brilliant  - you wanted to disagree with something, but, accidentally, you proved it right!  ;D
Title: Re: Is there ....
Post by: ZXDunny on September 14, 2018, 07:06:35 PM
you can tanks to delphi and other pascal people put the effort in so many libs (
deriverd from C/C++) which you can use in ,
without that delphi or pascal in general should be crap like any other BASIC dialect
which have just core things .

And that's exactly why Pascal is more suited for work than BASIC! This is brilliant  - you wanted to disagree with something, but, accidentally, you proved it right!  ;D

indeed he did - but interestingly, my actual (paid, very well indeed thankyou very much!) work uses very few libraries at all. We built all our audio routines in Delphi, all our UI routines (we don't use the Windows API for very much besides providing an actual window surface) and most third party stuff tends to be VSTs integrated into our UI to provide some functionality that we really wanted.

It's all Delphi, I'm afraid, and has been for 20 years now.
Title: Re: Is there ....
Post by: Aurel on September 15, 2018, 06:02:27 AM
[
Title: Re: Is there ....
Post by: Tomaaz on September 15, 2018, 07:40:56 AM
...but there are no 1000 dialects of PASCAL..right?

Right. Another reason why Pascal is more suited for work than BASIC is.

Also there is Visual Basic or now VB.Net.

VB.Net is not BASIC. C# is not C. Objective C is not C. JavaScript is not Java.
Title: Re: Is there ....
Post by: Richly on September 15, 2018, 07:48:39 AM
...and now Embarcadero are offering a free edition of Delphi for hobbyists...

https://www.embarcadero.com/products/delphi/starter
Title: Re: Is there ....
Post by: ZXDunny on September 15, 2018, 10:24:43 AM
I wish Emba would get of their arses and release a compiler for MacOS 64bit, but they're really dragging their heels. I'm bored of having to use FPC for that task.
Title: Re: Is there ....
Post by: Aurel on September 15, 2018, 12:41:25 PM
V
Title: Re: Is there ....
Post by: Aurel on September 15, 2018, 12:46:23 PM
O
Title: Re: Is there ....
Post by: Tomaaz on September 15, 2018, 12:56:18 PM
VB.net is not BASIC. The same way C# (or Objective C) is not C and JavaScript is not Java.  Do you know that "basic" is a popular word in English and it not necesarily means "BASIC"?
Title: Re: Is there ....
Post by: ScriptBasic on September 15, 2018, 02:37:40 PM
Script BASIC can emulate minimal BASIC with line numbers as well. It can also do COM/OLE automation. In my mind that is what a BASIC is suppose to be about.
Title: Re: Is there ....
Post by: ZXDunny on September 15, 2018, 04:12:48 PM
Script BASIC can emulate minimal BASIC with line numbers as well. It can also do COM/OLE automation. In my mind that is what a BASIC is suppose to be about.

ScriptBASIC can't do GO TO a*20 though, can it?
Title: Re: Is there ....
Post by: Aurel on September 15, 2018, 07:29:13 PM
If you or everybody else on this planet don't know what is OOP
look at  Oxygen Basic  OOP examples and if you have grain of salt in brain you will figure what is
all so called magic behind OOP which i call UDT
and then who is here who cam start to patronise me me that i don't know what is what?
Title: Re: Is there ....
Post by: Aurel on September 15, 2018, 07:34:30 PM
..and to continue
if you think that BASIC is worst then any other language is just a
idiotic thinking or poor mind resolving..
all this so called ultra fancy languages are just piece of crap
packed into different form and depend all of them of libs written in C
so are basically wrappers for C.
yeah
Title: Re: Is there ....
Post by: ScriptBasic on September 15, 2018, 07:47:47 PM
GOTO expression isn't a minimal BASIC feature.

There is nothing I have to prove with the merit of Script BASIC. It speaks for itself.
Title: Re: Is there ....
Post by: ZXDunny on September 15, 2018, 10:19:57 PM
GOTO expression isn't a minimal BASIC feature.

Neither the ECMA nor the Dartmouth spec prohibits an expression, and allowing the use of one does not preclude the use of purely numeric line numbers. It would seem that any BASIC that allows the user to make use of line numbers would probably allow GO TO <expression> in the same way that the old 8-bits BASICs did‚ rather than kind-of-sorta-allowing their use but not really.
Title: Re: Is there ....
Post by: ScriptBasic on September 16, 2018, 12:28:05 AM
In Script BASIC, line numbers are a special type of label. The numbering order or every line use is at the programmers discretion.

Code: [Select]
2 LET it = TRUE or FALSE
1 PRINT NOT it, "\n"


jrs@jrs-laptop:~/sb/examples/test$ scriba linenum.sb
0
jrs@jrs-laptop:~/sb/examples/test$


Some people still like riding horses even though we have moved on to cars.
Title: Re: Is there ....
Post by: ZXDunny on September 16, 2018, 06:48:36 PM
In Script BASIC, line numbers are a special type of label. The numbering order or every line use is at the programmers discretion.

Code: [Select]
2 LET it = TRUE or FALSE
1 PRINT NOT it, "\n"


jrs@jrs-laptop:~/sb/examples/test$ scriba linenum.sb
0
jrs@jrs-laptop:~/sb/examples/test$


I get that it's at least an attempt to let the user use line numbers, but allowing them to be out of sequence (both in execution and in the listing) seems to be... well, not very beginner friendly, no?

I mean, part of the charm of BASIC is that as a beginner it's immediately obvious where your program starts (the lowest line number, the first in the list) and which order the commands will be executed in - unlike C, Pascal et al where the initial starting point might not even be visible on the screen.

Quote
Some people still like riding horses even though we have moved on to cars.

Indeed they do, and that's an excellent analogy - people race both horses and cars, but if absolute speed is your goal you're not going to choose the horse over the car. Neither should anyone who is serious about their code choose BASIC for the job. It's for teaching beginners the absolute fundamentals of how a CPU executes code, not for production work.
Title: Re: Is there ....
Post by: ScriptBasic on September 16, 2018, 07:07:40 PM
I don't think just because the language uses a BASIC style of syntax that it should be excluded from being used in non-hobby projects. Script BASIC and Oxygen Basic are two good examples of commercial quality BASIC languages.

Who would have guessed that a browser scripting language would be used for commercial servers? (JavaScript)

Quote
I get that it's at least an attempt to let the user use line numbers, but allowing them to be out of sequence (both in execution and in the listing) seems to be... well, not very beginner friendly, no?

I like it the way it is because I can import line number based segments of code not caring what range or order the line labels are in.