RetroBASIC

Offtopic => Offtopic => Topic started by: Tomaaz on January 05, 2019, 05:14:03 PM

Title: 2018/2019
Post by: Tomaaz on January 05, 2019, 05:14:03 PM
Every single site I visit, every podcast I listen to is trying to name the most important things that happened in 2018. Microsoft buying GitHub, IBM buying Red Hat, Spectre and Meltdown, Linux apps running on Chromebooks, Microsoft becoming a premium sponsor to The Open Source Initiative, more and more distributions and programs dropping 32bit support etc. Has anything happened in BASIC world? Is 2019 going to be a year of BASIC on desktop or the year BASIC died? The answer is rather obvious, but, at least, we can have a chat here.  ;)
Title: Re: 2018/2019
Post by: n00b on January 06, 2019, 12:21:43 AM
I personally think it was a good year for BASIC. We had the  c64 gain alot of success, multiple winners in syntax bombs jams that were written in BBC BASIC, and many of us dialect developers released new versions of our languages in 2018. Its not realistic for BASIC to become mainstream in a industry that is quickly moving toward standardization but it is far from dead.
Title: Re: 2018/2019
Post by: Cybermonkey on January 06, 2019, 09:11:39 AM
I personally think it was a good year for BASIC. We had the  c64 gain alot of success, multiple winners in syntax bombs jams that were written in BBC BASIC, and many of us dialect developers released new versions of our languages in 2018. Its not realistic for BASIC to become mainstream in a industry that is quickly moving toward standardization but it is far from dead.
(http://ohioseagrant.osu.edu/archive/discuss/Smileys/default/thumbsup.gif)
Title: Re: 2018/2019
Post by: Tomaaz on January 06, 2019, 05:15:14 PM
I personally think it was a good year for BASIC.

For me, it was terrible. I rejoined this forum only to find it being dead. Some of the other forums look more like blogs. We used to complain about the level of activity on BP.org, but comparing to today's forums that place was extremely busy. The only BASIC that looks alive to me is BaCon. Other compilers/interpreters are either not being developed or used any more (I don't care about commercial products). The development of (not so long ago) busy and advanced projects has stopped or slowed down dramatically (QB64, OpenEuphoria, FreeBASIC). Python has been widely accepted as the language for beginners - Raspberry Pi (which I find boring and overrated) is probably the main reason for it. Several attempts to bring BASIC to Raspberry Pi have failed. The same can be said about mobile devices. Sorry guys, but it looks bad.

We had the  c64 gain alot of success

 ???
Title: Re: 2018/2019
Post by: n00b on January 06, 2019, 11:30:29 PM
Sorry about the C64 confusion. I was referring to the mini. It has been a pretty popular device and has been a gateway for a lot of younger tech enthusiasts to discover BASIC. As far as BASIC on the pi, I think a few dialects are on there already but they arent able to access the GPIO interfaces like python can. I know at least for freeBasic, they are still actively developing it. It has matured to a point where constant updates just are not necessary which is normal for any software. BASIC is not as widely used for the same reason Linux isn't. Every BASIC is different. But thats not necessarily a bad thing. It means more choices for the programmer.
Title: Re: 2018/2019
Post by: ZXDunny on January 06, 2019, 11:39:25 PM
I personally think it was a good year for BASIC.

For me, it was terrible. I rejoined this forum only to find it being dead. Some of the other forums look more like blogs. We used to complain about the level of activity on BP.org, but comparing to today's forums that place was extremely busy. The only BASIC that looks alive to me is BaCon. Other compilers/interpreters are either not being developed or used any more (I don't care about commercial products). The development of (not so long ago) busy and advanced projects has stopped or slowed down dramatically (QB64, OpenEuphoria, FreeBASIC). Python has been widely accepted as the language for beginners - Raspberry Pi (which I find boring and overrated) is probably the main reason for it. Several attempts to bring BASIC to Raspberry Pi have failed. The same can be said about mobile devices. Sorry guys, but it looks bad.

I have to agree. If your goal is to bring BASIC into the mainstream once again, that is. I'm actually quite happy with how BASIC is going, at least on my end - I gained quite a substantial number of new users who play with it on and off, and made some friends along the way.

So yeah, I had a good 2018 but I can see how others might see it differently.
Title: Re: 2018/2019
Post by: Tomaaz on January 07, 2019, 01:36:47 PM
BASIC is not as widely used for the same reason Linux isn't.

I wish BASIC was as "unpopular" as Linux. At the moment I follow five podcasts about Linux (and believe me - there are many more) and regularly visit several forums and sites dedicated to it. There are also Telegram groups, but I simply don't have time for them. You could discuss, try and discover new things related to Linux 24/7. I don't care if Linux ever becomes the most popular desktop system. As long as Linux community is as big and vibrant as now, I just wish I had more time for it.

 
Title: Re: 2018/2019
Post by: Tomaaz on January 08, 2019, 12:24:29 AM
John on his blog:

Quote
I guess Tomaaz hasn't been visiting the All BASIC or Oxygen Basic forums lately. AIR is active on the All BASIC forum cleaning up the Script BASIC distributions for Linux, Mac and Pi. The Gitlab sandbox has worked out great supplementing forum activity.

Charles is in the process of converting his FreeBasic version of his BASIC compiler to self compiling.

In all, I think BASIC had a great year. Leaving the RetoB forum and the bitter folks I left behind has made my life happier.

Well, I visit All BASIC forum from time to time. If I wasn't how would I know it's basically John's blog? Also, how would I know that no one's using or developing (I'm not talking about creating extra modules or recompiling/repackaging the same source with minor tweaks) ScriptBasic? OxygenBasic - many years of development and still in alfa? One day it may be a great compiler, but I wouldn't call it an active development. And it's Windows only. Bad idea - even Microsoft has entered Linux world. Leaving this forum has made John happier, but he keeps checking what's going on here and replaying to it on his blog. Interesting...
Title: Re: 2018/2019
Post by: Aurel on January 08, 2019, 01:58:46 PM
My question is :
who the fuccckkk is JOHN  :o
Title: Re: 2018/2019
Post by: Aurel on January 08, 2019, 02:07:42 PM
BASIC is not as widely used for the same reason Linux isn't

similar ..not exactly the same
but who care ?
Title: Re: 2018/2019
Post by: Aurel on January 08, 2019, 02:10:45 PM
..and is better to NOT know than KNOW...
python....what is that ?
Title: Re: 2018/2019
Post by: Aurel on January 08, 2019, 02:22:47 PM
Quote
OxygenBasic - many years of development and still in alfa? One day it may be a great compiler, but I wouldn't call it an active development

crap..
I must agree with tomek this time and i am pissed of because of that . !"!"#$#$%%&&
On the other side i know that creating such a compiler is not trivial work .
In general Oxygen Basic is the only true native basic/asm/JIT compiler ever created.
I can only hope that new selfcompiled version would be much efficient and without quirks.   
Title: Re: 2018/2019
Post by: Tomaaz on January 08, 2019, 03:04:02 PM
My question is :
who the fuccckkk is JOHN  :o

It's a blogger who post about BASIC (mostly ScriptBasic). He's unique, because he's using a forum engine as a blog platform.

BASIC is not as widely used for the same reason Linux isn't

similar ..not exactly the same
but who care ?

Probably not so many. I, for example, just wish BASIC was as "unpopular" as Linux.

python....what is that ?

A snake.

I must agree with tomek this time...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=usfiAsWR4qU
Title: Re: 2018/2019
Post by: Aurel on January 08, 2019, 03:13:36 PM
Aha
I see the JOHN is scriptBasic bloger who use forum for blog and bloging
on forum for basic ....hmmm hmmm...hmmmm

ahh john ...
of course i think that i know who is john ....
yeah i know ...
 :D

it is joke john ..so please don't take this as real
Title: Re: 2018/2019
Post by: Tomaaz on January 08, 2019, 03:25:17 PM
ahh john ...
of course i think that i know who is john ....
yeah i know ...
 :D

Of course, you do. And I know that you know. And John knows that you and me know. He also knows that I know that you know and that I know that he knows.

Quote
it is joke john ..so please don't take this as real

I don't think you need to clarify this. John is a smart guy. He's just invested his time and effort in a wrong project.
Title: Re: 2018/2019
Post by: Aurel on January 08, 2019, 03:33:15 PM
hmmm
 i am not sure
if i remember he said that he get some money for something about SB
or something like that
Title: Re: 2018/2019
Post by: Aurel on January 08, 2019, 03:40:23 PM
ohhh
I just read...
so tomek...

WHY YOU BITTER ?
if you ask me i like SHWEPS - BITTER LEMON
i don't get it why is you BITTER if you use VODKA ...
as far as i know VODKA is not BITTER ...it is alcohol  ;D yupieee

is bitter  - gorko , gorčina , mučnina ....ihiiii
Title: Re: 2018/2019
Post by: Aurel on January 08, 2019, 03:44:39 PM
is that you tomek ?
and how such a man can be bitter ????
Title: Re: 2018/2019
Post by: Tomaaz on January 08, 2019, 03:57:51 PM
i don't get it why is you BITTER if you use VODKA ...

I don't. I drink energy drinks (Relentless Original) and alcohol-free beer (Budweiser Prohibition or Heineken). You're imagining things, again. And John? I don't know why he's decided to stick with ScriptBasic. He could use his time, energy and knowledge to support something more serious. But it's his decision, of course.
Title: Re: 2018/2019
Post by: Aurel on January 08, 2019, 04:07:40 PM
I drink energy drinks

hmmm....tomek...tomek
this also explain a lot about you  ;D
but really be careful ..lot of cofeine and other craps are in this drinks ?
Title: Re: 2018/2019
Post by: Mike Lobanovsky on January 08, 2019, 07:03:13 PM
In general Oxygen Basic is the only true native basic/asm/JIT compiler ever created.

WTF is this sh@t about O2 being the only native BASIC+ASM=JIT compiler around? With all my respect to Charles Pegge as a language developer, FBSL v3 had been around for years as a BASIC+ASM+C capable JIT compiler before OxygenBasic was even able to say "mamma"!

Why don't you give a damn about all the crap you're spreading around you every time you open your mouth, Aurel?
Title: Re: 2018/2019
Post by: Aurel on January 08, 2019, 07:39:26 PM
HNY Mike HNY...  :)

Easy man..
What FBSL ?
I used this old version of fbsl which cannot compile directly into .exe
so i don't get it why you jump...
all other need something more soooo....
what is a problem?

HNY
Title: Re: 2018/2019
Post by: Tomaaz on January 08, 2019, 10:52:48 PM
And this is what I don't like about forums. When you listen to a podcast, what sets the character of the discussion is the tone of voices, the way people talk and not necessarily what they say. This topic was meant to be light and a bit funny. Like when a group of friends talk about something bad or sad, but still joke about it, try to be not so serious and have some distance. Of course, the stuff about blogs was meant to be sarcastic, but in a friendly way. While I'm thinking about having some fun, people ask me why I'm... so bitter. John banned me from AllBasic (even if I wasn't registered there). The he's explaining what ScriptBasic is (like I don't know it already). This is one big misunderstanding. This topic was not meant to be so serious. Relax.  ;)
Title: Re: 2018/2019
Post by: Mike Lobanovsky on January 09, 2019, 02:04:19 AM
OK OK boys, never mind. Keep on having fun the new year round.
Title: Re: 2018/2019
Post by: Aurel on January 09, 2019, 07:06:22 AM
And i agree again -with tomek.
hmmm something is wrong..or not  ;D
Title: Re: 2018/2019
Post by: Aurel on January 09, 2019, 08:49:36 AM
Back to topic...

if we think on last year...
I agree with Tomaaz in some points but not in gneral.
Stagnacy is everywhere in hobby programming world.
On Windows platform still is dominant MS VC and MingW.
Python yes ..it is used but on Windows still is not replacement for Basic
on Linux yes it is because of well known reasons.
For Basic dialects i cannot tell you more because most of them are semi-dead or dead.

Personally .. i don't do much programming but i build some fundamental things for my new interpreter
which in original would be written in o2 compiler BUT in same time i decide to
work in C ..
so each block of code which i make in o2 i will make in C
to compare speed and flexibility of code
and to learn more C in same time.
Title: Re: 2018/2019
Post by: Tomaaz on January 09, 2019, 10:14:32 AM
My prediction for 2019. Aurel is gonna switch to Linux completely and start writing his new BASIC interpreter in Python.  ;)
Title: Re: 2018/2019
Post by: Aurel on January 09, 2019, 11:25:42 AM
No Python ...no guffy...  ;D
/ ..and python is tooo bitter ..../  ;D
Sorry but Python is simply tooo slooow for such a thing.
It seems that C is the almost best option and there are many examples of tokenizers/lexers/parsers/virtual machines
written in C .
Also interpreter writtn in C is in some cases 5 times faster than written in basic compiler
50 to 100 times fster than written in python....yes python is really slow .
I am not sure but i read somewhere that Swift is very fast ...etc..etc..
Title: Re: 2018/2019
Post by: Tomaaz on January 09, 2019, 06:52:53 PM
John on AllBasic:

Quote
You're also a damn lier. You joined the All BASIC forum to ask a question of one of the developer members. You shortly there after deleted your account. I never banned anyone from All BASIC.

No, I'm not. And I can easily prove it. After I started this topic and shared my opinion about ScriptBasic and AllBasic you wrote:

Quote
The reason approving your membership here took so long is you are in the forum spam database as an undesirable. My vote is they keep you on the list.

This sounds like a ban to me. And and the moment I wasn't registered on AllBasic. I wasn't, because I deleted my account a couple of months before. So, what's the point of issuing a statement like that to someone who already left and is not interested in being a member??? You don't have to put me on your spam list or undesirable list, because I have absolutely no desire to be a member there. Thank you.

Title: Re: 2018/2019
Post by: Tomaaz on January 10, 2019, 08:15:44 AM
John, yes I was registered on AllBasic for a couple of weeks several months ago (is it possible to delete an account without having one?).  The only reason I registered there was your Phix subforum. There was problem with OpenEuphoria forum and I wanted to report an issue with Phix.  To register I used a Polish alias (no way I would give any forum my primary or secondary email) that happend to be flagged as a spam source. It has nothing to do with my login or me as a person. It's funny how you either don't understand how things work or believe that other people are idiots who will believe any nonsense you say.
Title: Re: 2018/2019
Post by: Aurel on January 10, 2019, 09:16:00 AM
Quote
It's funny how you either don't understand how things work

Oh man ...that is really weird..

He ask me once what is my IP adress ..then he "figured" that i use wifi from my car and i drive from
one free wifi spot to another free wifi spot and connect to internet every time with different IP
...do you can believe in that tomek?
he simply don't know for dynamic IP ? weird...
Title: Re: 2018/2019
Post by: Aurel on January 10, 2019, 09:57:06 AM
For example i agree with Mike 100% when he have a right
( but that is not always even he think that is )

Quote
a pointer-less BASIC is a pointless BASIC
BASIC has always been, and still continues to be, an all-purpose instrument, and its B(eginner's) component is just a minute fraction in the language paradigm that, if unavailable intrinsically in a well-developed BASIC dialect, can be easily plugged in via a screenful-long include file or a tiny dynamically linked module
object-oriented BASICs are BASICs all right because, while remaining BASIC-like in their semantics and base vocabulary, they simply implement one of the most productive and efficient schemes to achieve development speed, consistency and maintainability in modern production environments
Dartmouth died together with Kemeny
line numbers are a ridiculous anachronism
spaghetti code as a direct consequence of line numbering is a contagious disease, and spaghetti code advocates breeding it in their retro-dialects (re. SpecBAS) should be persecuted as public enemies
console is a rudiment of the past similar to Dartmouth; its entire functionality requires a half-screenful of include code; modern BASIC beginners should be ushered directly into the wonderful world of modern user-friendly graphics OS'es like MS Windows or macOS
goto is great and a must-have for any language out there
Python lists are a plagiarism borrowed from LISP to escape its inevitable sinking to oblivion like many other Linuxoid projects of the past and, obviously, of the future; modern BASICs counter LISP-like lists successfully with their own Variant data type functionality
advocating Python with its lists or QB64 that has practically no array support and at the same time harassing Script BASIC in its own discussion thread in the absence of the topic starter is plain and

and that is good presentation from AllBasic info...  :)
Title: Re: 2018/2019
Post by: Aurel on January 10, 2019, 10:05:55 AM
When we talk about BASIC dialects...then situation is really weird
for example:

FBSL - is from my point of view ( and i always repeat that ) far more better and somehow
much stable than for example Eros - ThinBasic..
but hey :
FBSL is dead ....and thinBasic is still semi-alive
I wish that both are alive and have user base ... but time changes and young and older potential
users are not interested or lost interest.
So no mather how the languge is good or powerful ...simply people are not interested.
Especially young ...which are on smartphones...all the time.  ::)
Title: Re: 2018/2019
Post by: Mike Lobanovsky on January 10, 2019, 04:50:29 PM
Aurel,

I appreciate your providing the exact source and authorship of your quotation this time. However a link to the original (https://www.allbasic.info/forum/index.php?topic=496.msg5312#msg5312) would be more preferable because it stresses two more points that your quotation misses:
FBSL is dead ....

That's correct. There will be no more FBSL as we knew it.

Like any other very well developed interpreter, it has become too dangerous if abused by evil minds. It is too polymorphic and almighty on the user PC with its low-level JIT compilers in an interpretative BASIC wrapper. No UAC, DEP or similar system defenses can prevent efficiently what it can do to the user PC in the hands of a perverted red eyed script kiddie, pretty much like the system is defenseless against all the evils that's been brought about by innumerous other interpreters of mostly Linuxoid origin.

I do not want it to be on the list of high-potential malware together with VisualBasic 6.0, and I do not want to be called Dr Frankenstein or Mr Hide. Mike Lobanovsky is what I am and I prefer to be remembered as such. :)
Title: Re: 2018/2019
Post by: Tomaaz on January 10, 2019, 09:34:04 PM
That's correct. There will be no more FBSL as we knew it.

Like any other very well developed interpreter, it has become too dangerous if abused by evil minds. It is too polymorphic and almighty on the user PC with its low-level JIT compilers in an interpretative BASIC wrapper. No UAC, DEP or similar system defenses can prevent efficiently what it can do to the user PC in the hands of a perverted red eyed script kiddie, pretty much like the system is defenseless against all the evils that's been brought about by innumerous other interpreters of mostly Linuxoid origin.

I do not want it to be on the list of high-potential malware together with VisualBasic 6.0, and I do not want to be called Dr Frankenstein or Mr Hide. Mike Lobanovsky is what I am and I prefer to be remembered as such. :)

It's to late, I'm afraid. There are at least three projects based on it. Two (HAL 9000 and Skynet) are run by the government, third one (Nexus 6) by Tyrell Corporation. Let's pray they are never finished, because not only Alien and Predator, but even Ripley herself won't be able to save us.
Title: Re: 2018/2019
Post by: Mike Lobanovsky on January 10, 2019, 09:43:11 PM
He laughs best who laughs last, my friend. ;D
Title: Re: 2018/2019
Post by: Tomaaz on January 10, 2019, 09:49:15 PM
Did you realize that this year is "Blade Runner year"? And I still remember waiting for 2001...  ;)
Title: Re: 2018/2019
Post by: Mike Lobanovsky on January 10, 2019, 09:54:35 PM
Why? 2049 is still 30 years ahead. I was 45 way back in 2001, and when I was only 15, I thought the 3rd millennium would never come because noone lives forever... :)
Title: Re: 2018/2019
Post by: Tomaaz on January 10, 2019, 10:01:29 PM
The original "Blade Runner", of course. Los Angeles 2019. In 2001 I was 24, but I was already a slave after on 29/08/1997 Skynet initiated "Judgement Day".  :)
Title: Re: 2018/2019
Post by: Mike Lobanovsky on January 10, 2019, 10:14:26 PM
The original "Blade Runner", of course. Los Angeles 2019.

That's correct; the recent "Blade Runner 2049" has somewhat blurred my memories. Thanks!
Title: Re: 2018/2019
Post by: Richly on January 12, 2019, 10:16:27 PM
I spent less time coding in 2018/19 than at any time since I rediscovered it a few years back. Taking on additional responsibility at work (and then bringing it home) was the biggest culprit. Any spare time was largely spent in the real world with my family; most coding time was spent with my daughter (the BBC Microbit is a favourite at her school).

https://microbit.org/ (https://microbit.org/)

The only BASIC that looks alive to me is BaCon. Other compilers/interpreters are either not being developed or used any more (I don't care about commercial products).

BBC BASIC is still under active development  ;)

I personally think it was a good year for BASIC.

Sorry guys, but it looks bad.

I have to agree. If your goal is to bring BASIC into the mainstream once again, that is. I'm actually quite happy with how BASIC is going, at least on my end - I gained quite a substantial number of new users who play with it on and off, and made some friends along the way.

So yeah, I had a good 2018 but I can see how others might see it differently.

Spot on.
Title: Re: 2018/2019
Post by: jcfuller on January 25, 2019, 06:46:47 PM
My OCD had me trapped in No Man's Sky for a good portion of 2018 but I am now hard at work updating my bc9Basic Afx package.
FYI my not new (2016)UbxBasic ran fine on a raspberry pi 3 with Ubuntu Mate.
AIR recently tested it on Mac and with a few tweaks it worked there also.
I have NO interest in Linux anymore.
Windows gives me all I need. With vc++ anda Tiny C libaray I can now create wee apps that rival hand coded asm.

James
Title: Re: 2018/2019
Post by: Tomaaz on January 30, 2019, 06:49:03 PM
I have NO interest in Linux anymore.
Windows gives me all I need. With vc++ anda Tiny C libaray I can now create wee apps that rival hand coded asm.

It's a very sensible approach, IMO. There is no point in trying to create cross platform product if the developer doesn't have a knowledge/skills/time/passion to do so. From my experience, I can't name a single BASIC project that works equally well under Windows and Linux, not to mention Android. 
Title: Re: 2018/2019
Post by: Mike Lobanovsky on January 30, 2019, 09:20:47 PM
With vc++ anda Tiny C libaray I can now create wee apps that rival hand coded asm.

Hi James,

Do you mean Frederick Harris' library or some Tiny C Compiler (TCC) library that somehow slipped my attention?
Title: Re: 2018/2019
Post by: jcfuller on February 03, 2019, 10:56:35 AM
With vc++ anda Tiny C libaray I can now create wee apps that rival hand coded asm.

Hi James,

Do you mean Frederick Harris' library or some Tiny C Compiler (TCC) library that somehow slipped my attention?

Mike,
  Fred's library.
  My focus is c++ translation so no Pelles or TCC here on.
James