John's reason for leaving

[B+]

Sorry, AlyssonR's remark misses the mark for me.

Line numbers were a nuisance and spaghetti code a night mare, glad to be rid of peek and poke for mouse or interrupts as well.

I am mostly into mathematical drawing, game puzzles,... I have coded a couple of editors, custom database, math experiments... including extending precision of square roots and perfect division... all stuff done 10x's or 100's of times better by others, doesn't matter.

What hits the mark is opportunity to be creative, do stuff that works with infinite variations, dynamic drawing... also have a taste for uncluttered elegance which is why Tomaaz interests and D's code have such appeal. I never saw those coding magazines but that sounds like it, spend a couple hours coding some challenge and then see where 10 modifications of that take you. I have a taste for recursive routines and love to apply them to problems - kids stuff? or making games you can play against, Air Hockey, Battleship, Connect 4, might try Chess but Checkers would be first. Is AI kids stuff?

They say Mathematics is just playing games by rule sets, OK!

[ZXDunny]

Absolutely. And we are all free to pursue those goals in any way we see fit.

So when Mike says "spaghetti code as a direct consequence of line numbering is a contagious disease, and spaghetti code advocates breeding it in their retro-dialects (re. SpecBAS) should be persecuted as public enemies" I get a real Dijkstra flavour coming through, but then says that "goto is great and a must-have for any language out there" I can't help but chuckle.

Besides, is "persecuted as public enemies" just a little strong? I mean, am I allowed to do what I like with my own code or not? And why do people like Mike and John get to say what is and is not acceptable for me to be doing?

As I said before - I like line numbers, because it takes be back to the days when I was a beginner, when I had the most fun coding. Sure, I work professionally as a coder but modern languages and IDEs don't scratch that itch and bring the same joy. And apparently that's a bad thing!

[Tomaaz]

SpecBas is much more interesting and fun project than ScriptBasic. Why? ScriptBasic is just another scripting language. It's unfinished, feels dated and is definitely not the best in the category it belongs to. SpecBas, on the other hand, is an unique project that offers something really original. It's not trying to be this great language for everyone, its focused on a certain group of users. ScriptBasic can be easily replaced by one of the many other languages, but SpecBas can't. As long, as ZXDunny doesn't start to spam every single post here and claim that his language is the best BASIC ever, as long as he doesn't start to call languages like Python or Ruby to be "junk" or "bloated crap", I'm happy to see SpecBasic examples here, despite the fact that I really hate line numbers and GOTO.

[Mike Lobanovsky]

... I really hate line numbers and GOTO.

There was always a "conventional" goto in C, and now there are also "computed" goto's there, yet we never had much of "spaghetti code" issues in C programming. Hence my welcome to goto which often appears to be the only graceful way out in quite a number of practical coding situations (especially when one wishes to reuse blocks of similar code under different conditions), and my rejection of line numbers which thus appear to be the only reason of "spaghetti code" issue in retro-BASIC listings with their cumbersome yet indispensable line numbering.

'D' — deduction. Elementary, my dear Watson! (c)

It's unfinished, feels dated ...

Script BASIC was finished even way back when it first appeared on its original scriptbasic dot com site. It came in two flavors (Linux and Windows), was supplied with exhaustive user and developer documentation, and included a number of exemplary and practical extensions (both front- and back-end) to allow for future diversification and expansion.

Peter Verhas was as meticulous a language developer as there only can be. What his successors tried and achieved to a varying degree of success was building upon the solid base he was so prescient to provide.

SpecBas, on the other hand, is an unique project that offers something really original.

SpecBAS is essentially a more or less successful steam-punk project and should be treated as such. Nuff said.

____________________________________

The havoc usually begins when somebody instigates, accidentally or on purpose, that silly discussion about "the most beginner-friendly BASIC" again — before the aging audience of chieftains with no Indians. Last time it was menn, this time it is B+. While you guys are at it, the beginners are mastering OxygenBasic.

[B+]

... I really hate line numbers and GOTO.

There was always a "conventional" goto in C, and now there are also "computed" goto's there, yet we never had much of "spaghetti code" issues in C programming. Hence my welcome to goto which often appears to be the only graceful way out in quite a number of practical coding situations (especially when one wishes to reuse blocks of similar code under different conditions), and my rejection of line numbers which thus appear to be the only reason of "spaghetti code" issue in retro-BASIC listings with their cumbersome yet indispensable line numbering.

'D' — deduction. Elementary, my dear Watson! (c)

It's unfinished, feels dated ...

Script BASIC was finished even way back when it first appeared on its original scriptbasic dot com site. It came in two flavors (Linux and Windows), was supplied with exhaustive user and developer documentation, and included a number of exemplary and practical extensions (both front- and back-end) to allow for future diversification and expansion.

Peter Verhas was as meticulous a language developer as there only can be. What his successors tried and achieved to a varying degree of success was building upon the solid base he was so prescient to provide.

SpecBas, on the other hand, is an unique project that offers something really original.

SpecBAS is essentially a more or less successful steam-punk project and should be treated as such. Nuff said.

____________________________________

The havoc usually begins when somebody instigates, accidentally or on purpose, that silly discussion about "the most beginner-friendly BASIC" again — before the aging audience of chieftains with no Indians. Last time it was menn, this time it is B+. While you guys are at it, the beginners are mastering OxygenBasic.

Yeah sure B+ stands for Blame me 

Yes by all means give me credit for getting rid of John. 

Thank you very much! 

Poor, poor, helpless, innocent John. 

Mike look again at who started the thread. 

And look again what beginners are mastering in droves, I think it's Python. And God or you only knows why?

[Mike Lobanovsky]

One thing I knows for sure: the time they elect you as the site Admin again will be the time I unsubscribe. You're losing your reputation in my eyes by leaps and bounds, Mark. Next time you wanna comment on my remarks addressed to another forum member, inhale deeply, exhale slowly through your nose, and go take a nap. Probably you should just sleep on it.

[B+]

Mike if you want a private conversation PM the guy.

If you want to accuse me publicly of something then expect me to reply.

You know, I think they call it trolling.

[Mike Lobanovsky]

Mark, sure you wouldn't meddle in the public conversation of two passers-by walking the same street as you even if they'd be talking things you don't particularly like? That would be trolling, not my mentioning someone in my words addressed to my interlocutor.

Something's seriously failing you, old pal, as was clearly seen in that hysterical OP of yours that used to open the Notes on Script BASIC thread.

[ZXDunny]

SpecBas, on the other hand, is an unique project that offers something really original.

SpecBAS is essentially a more or less successful steam-punk project and should be treated as such. Nuff said.

And that's your opinion, and that's fine, but please don't go around making remarks about how I should be persecuted for making it. SpecBAS brings me, and a lot of others, happiness and a nice nostalgic feeling. If you're declaring that this is bad and I should be punished then we're treading a fine line towards fascism. And I think we can all agree that we don't really want that.

Edit: We've already lost John due to his butthurt pride. He's spouting off that we were insisting that he dumb-down Script BASIC and make it "beginner friendly" when the exact opposite is true - he was insisting that anything but a professional BASIC was a waste of time and nothing more than a toy - and not just SpecBAS, but all the myriad BASICs out there that didn't meet his exacting standards. He got quite abusive about it and ended up getting called out for it, after which he ran away sobbing into his Wiki.

He's over in his echo-chamber right now making us out to be the bad guys here, but all we wanted to do was mess around in BASIC and maybe learn something from eachother. He's the one hurling accusations of us being children.

[Richly]

SpecBAS brings me, and a lot of others, happiness and a nice nostalgic feeling.

Yep 

[Richly]

It was SpecBAS that brought me back to programming, BASIC and the ZX Spectrum.

My 10 year old daughter loves it too. She is using Scratch at school but we play with SpecBAS together at home and it really helps reinforce what she is learning through Scratch.

She already knows the basic concepts and GO TO and line numbers are actually really intuitive for her and help her understand the way the computer executes each line of code.

[ZXDunny]

She already knows the basic concepts and GO TO and line numbers are actually really intuitive for her and help her understand the way the computer executes each line of code.

See? That's precisely why I do this. And precisely (aside from nostalgia) that I insist on line numbers. It's how I learnt, back in the mists of time. It's how an entire generation of coders were started. It's perfect for beginners. And by "beginners" I don't mean people who can code things like

10 PRINT "Dixons are crap OK!"
20 GO TO 10

But people who cannot even do that. They understand nothing about programming. And when they do master the line numbers style, they can (and indeed should) migrate up to something that doesn't use them. Because all the real programming languages don't use them, and if they're going to expand their knowledge they will have to leave line numbers behind at some point. And let's face it, if they start with C or Pascal, they're gonna have bigger problems than just being able to see which instruction will be executed next - they might not even be able to find where their code actually starts

So thanks for that Comment, Richey. It's made my day in the face of all of these language snobs

[Mike Lobanovsky]

... a fine line towards fascism. And I think we can all agree that we don't really want that.

ROFLMAO!

Would you really mind if one almost accomplished fascist hangs out among y'all irreproachable liberals on this forum for a while longer yet? What about that notorious "toleration" we're hearing so much about these days?

You're evidently mistaken about my origin and whereabouts. I'm not a Russian communo-fascist. I live in another country and profess other values.

And one more thing; it once took you almost three days to respond to my simple question that was definitely in your declared professional vein. Now hardly am I able to formulate my thoughts in an alien language and here you are popping up with your prompt and verbose rebuttals and labeling like a devil out of a snuffbox. Why's that?

@Richey:

I'm glad your daughter loves it. After all, Paul does have a few very spectacular eye candies up his sleeve. But surely you aren't going to reduce the term "beginners" to 10 y.o. ladies only however cute and dear they may be, are you? The only "beginners" I ever met in recent ten years or so were all about Tomaaz's age.

[ZXDunny]

... a fine line towards fascism. And I think we can all agree that we don't really want that.

ROFLMAO!

Would you really mind if one almost accomplished fascist hangs out among y'all irreproachable liberals on this forum for a while longer yet? What about that notorious "toleration" we're hearing so much about these days?

You're evidently mistaken about my origin and whereabouts. I'm not a Russian communo-fascist. I live in another country and profess other values.

I didn't say you are fascist - just that declaring people who write SpecBAS must be persecuted (your words) is stepping in that direction - and it doesn't matter which country you're from, ugly attitudes are pretty universal.

You're a good bloke and I've never had a quarrel with you before, but as soon as John gets his arse kicked for being, well, an arse, you started attacking me! And for no better reason than I enjoy writing and using a BASIC with line numbers no less. What happened to you, Mike? This behaviour is not like you at all.

And in case I've not made myself perfectly crystal clear: I (nor anyone else) did not demand that John make Script BASIC suitable for beginners, nobody said it had to have line numbers (it can already use them albeit in a very simple manner) or any other silliness. We merely pointed out that Script BASIC was (and is) not suitable for absolute beginners, unlike BASIC. John took the hump, became abusive and as I said earlier, got his arse handed to him on a plate. After which he flounced out the forum and sat in his echo chamber grumbling to himself.

But surely you aren't going to reduce the term "beginners" to 10 y.o. ladies only however cute and dear they may be, are you?

Of course not, anyone can be a beginner. And let's face it - young children are more likely to be beginners than adults (though there are plenty of adults starting out in learning to code). To my mind, a beginner is someone who has never coded before. In any sense. Has no clue how a computer works, but wants to learn. Others have different ideas of what it means to be a beginner, but that's mine.

As for the audio software question - Tomaaz answered it before I even noticed it was there, and in any case it's not my area of expertise. Hence my reply:

I don't really do anything musical, and I certainly don't make any. I just code the tools for others to do it.

And that's the truth.

[Mike Lobanovsky]

Paul,

Thanks for making yourself loud and clear fast. In fact, it prevented my posting a rather nasty piece of trolling to your address. That was one rare case when my slowness in English responses played into my hands.

What irritated me most in this recent "John's case" was your common unwillingness to deal with the situation in a civilized manner. There is Aurel, and Toomaz the cheerful serpentologist, and now Mark, and sometimes even me, that can be equally hard to bear in one's threads but nobody's really after their (our) heads for occasional PITA on this forum.

What regards John, his interference is usually rather easily controlled by a simple request to abstain from flooding the thread with irrelevant comments or out of place code snippets. We're all only human, after all.

I don't really understand why y'all preferred to hunt him down to unsubscription. He was only "facilitating" and "promoting" his dialect — the thing he's been doing to the best of his ability for as long as I can remember him, which, believe me, is in fact quite some time now.